::                                                              ::
  ::                     - WHAT'S RATTLIN' ? -                    ::
  ::       The Weekly Digest for Canterbury Music Addicts         ::
  ::                          Issue # 6                           ::
  ::                    Friday, June 7th, 1996                    ::
  ::                                                              ::


From: Malcolm Humes <mal@emf.net>
Subject: Lisa Herman, Daevid, Giorgio and Byg Daddy Jean K.
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 19:39:41 -0700

Many thanks for the digests... Someone a few issues ago commented that my Soft Machine/Wyatt/Gong pages were the first Canterbury pages on the web... probably so, but they are all very dated, been up since 1993 or 94 and I haven't got much time or energy to update. They grew out of the spirit of collaboration on Usenet with many contributing to discographies and I'd always hoped that they would become group efforts and collaborations. Instead they have aged into a bunch of footnotes and I'm sorry to say that I have little intent in updating the Wyatt and Soft Machine areas depsite those folks meaning a lot to me. CALYX seems to hold more promise for being a well managed site that fuses the contributions of many and offers a forum for discussion via this list. It's wonderful!

Rob Bennet asks:
>I see that Lisa Herman's name popped up... I loved her work with
>Blegvad/Greaves. I know she was in a band called Longhouse; I have the vinyl,
>but was greatly disappointed. Anyone know of anything else she has done or if
>she can be cajoled into doing some more work with "our crowd"?

Lisa Herman popped up on a few releases with some of the same crowd. On the
Blegvad/Greaves Kew Rhone release we find her in company of Carla Bley also...
Lisa, Carla, Daevid Allen and a few others of that ilk also appear on Michael
Zentner's (not sure I have the title right) "Present Time" (or is it "Leaving
Time" ?) from circa 1979 or so. That was recently reissued on CD on Ozone and
also I think features Percy Jones and some of the Brand X crew.

["Present Time" was released in 1980. Apart from ex-Muffins violonist/guita-
rist/vocalist Zentner, it features an incredible cast of musicians from
Brand X - Jones, Kenwood Dennard -, Gong - Daevid Allen, Hansford Rowe -,
the Kew Rhone Project - John Greaves, Lisa Herman -, as well as Carla
Bley, Daevid Allen or Frank Wyatt of Happy The Man - A.L.]

A few of the same names (Lisa Herman, Carla Bley, ????) also appear on some Kip Hanrahan projects around that time. I know some sample on American Clave, Hanrahans' label, features a little but I think there's a whole cd/lp from around 1980 featuring Herman on some cuts. Hanrahan is an interesting producer, to me one who comes close to the production masterpieces of Laswell's Material or Hector Zazou but never quite as interetsing. I believe there's a Wyatt track from a Hanrahan project (I think the lp was never released) that shows up on one of the samplers. Wasn't she also on News for Babel?

[No, she wasn't, News From Babel was really a British-based band, led by Lindsay Cooper (music) and Chris Cutler (words). But she did take part in the early line-up of the Lodge, in the early 80's, which consisted of her, John Greaves and Peter Blegvad - actually the "Kew Rhone" team. But the Lodge album from 1987 was recorded by a different line-up, with only Greaves and Blegvad remaining - A.L.]

As for Michael Bloom's notes on NY Gong, I think I can add a few details. I think there were at least two tours of Allen/Ny Gong and company. I think there was a series of Manifestivals and a series of Zu Festivals. I've got tapes of many of these but of marginal quality. Once of these days I'll dig up some of the relevant dates. Daevid did a solo Divided Alien tour after the NY Gong lp and band era. Both are during a particularly dark or bleak period in Daevid's life - he'd just broken up with Gilli and NY probably wasn't a very healthy state of mind to live in. I know there was also a 1980 or so Los Angeles appearance by Daevid that was more him just talking and telling the history of Gong and the mythology. This was taped and broadcast on radio in San Francisco in 1991 or so.

[Another question on Gong'78 : it was mentioned that Allen & Co performed material from the Radio Gnome Trilogy. I suppose the spirit in which they were performed was very different from the "hippie"/"cosmic" atmosphere of the '73-'75 Gong ? - A.L.]

I remember the night I saw Fripp in an in store frippertronics demonstration in Bryn Mawr Pennsylvania circa 1979 Daevid Allen was running around handing out Planet Gong history newspapers and flyers for the NY Gong show in Philadelphia that night. My friends thought Fripp was enough for one night and I missed it but gathered from later accounts that this had been the Zu/Material band warming up, solo sets by Yochk'o Seffer and I think Fred Frith, a set with Gilli and a set with Daevid doing some classic Gong and NY Gong material with the Zu boys. In the Zu sets I've heard from that era Laswell and company were doing at least one Eno cover (Sombre  Reptiles) and you can hear Laswell doing riffs from Weidorje, a Magma spinoff... I have a tape with an short interview with Daevid after the Philly show.

Around that time Daevid was driving around selling albums to record stores out of the trunk of his car -  plain white cover pressings of Planet Gong with no label credited. When the Charly version was released some of the cover art was changed (the prices, and "Steal this record if you can" changed to "better to steal it if you can").

Daevid told me that around that time (1980) he, Fred Frith and Peter Blegvad were sharing a flat in New York City. This explains the formation of Massacre at Blegvad's behest and is a curious nexus in Laswell's career as he shifted over a short time from working with Daevid Allen to Fred Frith to Blegvad (then fairly instrumental in the Golden Palominos). Daevid also mentioned that Mark Kramer (of Bongwater) had got his fist gig playing bass in NY Gong, which I assume must have been another lineup after Laswell moved on or maybe pre-Zu days.

This is really only marginally Canterbury related but I would like to solicit more info on this:

Giorgio Gomelsky and Jean Karakos/Caracas apparently have played a strong role in Daevid's musical career and in that of Laswell. I would like to know more about these folks. My impression is that both have been involved in a string of questionable labels collapsing and disputed rights. Caracas apparently was instrumental in signing Daevid to Byg and I think later disppeared and resurfaced as a partner in Charly, or someone affiliated claimed Daevid's contract with Virgin for Gong was invalid and that Daevid owed two lps to Charly. Thus Camembert Electrique and  Angel's Egg have been in both Charly and Virgin pressings. Caracas apparently was later involved in Jem records and Celluloid. Jem was a major importer distributer that apparently got into some mob related scams and went under in a huge collapse that hurt a lot of independent labels. And it was rumored they were making illegal pressings of material. Caracas was apparently also involved in some disputes over regional rights to Ralph Records/Residents releases - making US pressings when they only had rights for France. And I heard he was involved in Celluloid - a label that Laswell seemed to be executive producer for at one time. Celluloid was apparently bootlegging some pressings of things like Throbbing Gristle at one point and the label seemed to die a nasty death but then resurfaced from bankruptcy some years later... Gomelsky, meanwhile, was involved in some disputes over Magma releases he produced and claimed worldwide rights to over objections form the band. The US Tomato label seemed to be another of these like Passport, Jem, and Celluloid that crumbled into bankruptcy and that Gomelsky apparently had some affiliation with. I'm not sure there's a clear connection between Gomelsky and Caracas but the trend of small labels, bankruptcy, ripoff claims and rights being sold off or cashed in on again and again while the holding companies disappear and resurface seems curious. I would love to hear more first hand.

I had an offer of opportunity to work with Giorgio Gomelsky last year on a project with Charly but I was nervous about whether I'd actually get paid and was eventually only asked to do some demos for free. Anyway, it seems curious to me that Gomelsky and Caracas have such a string of failed labels in their wake and affiliations to Charly - which seems to survive by buying up old catalogs fo failed labels, often dealing in areas where international rights to the catalog use are disputed... And Daevid has told me he's never seen a cent of royalties from Charly yet he's apparently continued in business dealings with them over the years and a lot of Gilli and Daevid releases have only seen release because of Charly. The record business is a curious and strange business built on exploitation of artists and the relationships between Allen and Gomelsky and Caracas and Laswell all seem quite curious to me... parasitic, living off each other at times, perhaps... Gomelsky's continued repackaging of Soft Machine demos as a "pre-first lp" release under many titles seems bordering on deceptive and I doubt the Softs ever saw much if any payment for that "album".

I welcome any other stories about Gomelsky or Caracas - not even sure I have spelled their names right. I have heard some other interesting stories and rumors about both of them, including one about Caracas trying to duckout on a check for lunch with Tuxedomoon that resulted in a maitre'd chasing the lot of them down the street with a butcher knife... and of his responding to another artist he had screwed by saying "You don't understand the French sense of humor!" Yes, it's not quite Canterbury specific but the roots of Soft Machine and Gong are deeply intertwined with these characters, as was Laswell's rise from backing musician for a Gong offshoot to a world renowned producer.

[BTW, it seems Byg is still active as a sub-label to Sony/France. Does anyone know if this has anything to do with THE Byg label Malcolm is writing about ? And is Karakos involved ? - A.L.]

 - Malcolm Humes


From: Rob Illingworth <ri001@netgates.co.uk>
Subject: Spirit of Canterbury
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:50:03 -0400 (EDT)

Can I be another devil's advocate and put forward my candidates for "canterbury 2000" ? I think that the young welsh group Gorky's Zygotic Mynci have all the wit, playfulness and downright strangeness of the original Softs their "bwyd time" album is probably the best place for the curious to start, but I think their definite statement so far was an extraordinary 90 minute "home video" broadcast on S4C (the Welsh tv channel) a few months ago- how did a bunch of schoolkids from carmarthen come up with such a surreal marvel?! To add weight to my case, let me add that they have recorded a credible version of "Why Are We Sleeping ?" (=their concert encore) a song called "kevin ayers"  and a Welsh version of "O Caroline" !!!


From: Teatse Vogelaar <vogelaar@epsilon.nl>
Subject: a Canterbury thing
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:15:15 GMT

Hi, there
A message from Harlingen, The Netherlands, where in september 21 and 22 there will be a musical thing going on titled "a CANTERBURY thing in HARLINGEN". There are only a few things to be sattled yet. You will probably have received some E-mail from one of my friends. We thought it a good idea to let you know first. This E-mail is not intended to tell you all the details already, but more to find out if this way of talking to eachother really works. (I am new on the internet as well as on the computer). Then again, it promisses to be a very nice happening with Richard Sinclair's line up and a Hugh Hopper line up. Also the Pleegzuster band will accompany Sinclair like they did a few times before.(see Canterbury Nachrichten "the Dutch Moles"). Put my E-mail adress in your memory, I hope you will have to use it in the future.


From: Julian Christou <christoj@plk.af.mil>
Subject: Robert Wyatt BBC Sessions
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:16:00 -0600 (MDT)

Hello again one-and-all. After a brief sojourn, I'm back again. The news about the BBC Sessions listings is really interesting. I remember hearing a number of Caravan "In Concerts" including of course the Windsong release but there is also an earlier one on which they cover "Feelin, Reelin', Squeelin" - does anyone have any more info on that one?

Is the tape still in the Beeb Archives. There was also a "Banana Follies" In Concert featuring Kevin Ayers, Dave Bedford, Mike Oldfield and Lol Coxhill amongst others featuring not just Kevin songs but also contributions from the rest which showcased some on Lol's and Dave's stuff. Is that tape deceased?

In fact I would be grateful if someone could post to Aymeric an "In Concert" and "Session" lists for the Canterbury bands to the Big-Bang home page. It would be very useful and also maybe we could use it to try to persuade BBC (World Domination) Enterprises and Windsong and Strange Fruit that there is a market for official releases of a lot of this stuff especially if we could do it en-masse - it may have more clout. Opinions ?

[It seems many of the original tapes have been lost. I have good copies, though, of some Hatfield and N-Health sessions, some quite bad of Egg and of N-Health performing "Binoculars" with R. Sinclair on vocals. Can anyone else provide information on the sound quality of the various radio recordings in circulation ? - A.L.]

As for the Wyatt session. I must admit I was dissappointed by the release of the 1975 sessions by Strange Fruit and not the earlier 1972 sessions featuring Francis Monkman. Don't get me wrong. I think the release is great but all the tracks have been officially released in other forms whereas the previous session hadn't. I was pleased to see "God Song/Fol De Rol" on "Flotsam" but what about "Bluebird of Happiness" and "Arts Council Grant" ? Is it possible that these will resurface sometime on CD a la the Mike King compilation. I imagine that there must be quite a bit of Wyatt stuff still not released based on the "new" stuff on both "Flotsam" and the Virgin release.

[The version of "God Song/Fol De Rol" on "Flotsam and Jetsam" was obviously not a first generation copy, so let's assume the original tapes were lost. It's not surprising that the sessions which immediately followed the critically-acclaimed "Rock Bottom" were preserved more carefully... I reckon there's more hope in the 1974 Drury Lane concert, an excerpt of which ('Calyx') appears on the "Going Back A Bit" compilation. Virgin apparently recorded the gig, with excellent sound quality. Another mystery is why there's not more Wyatt material from the Wyatt/Cow tour of 1975 included in the reissue of Henry Cow's "Concerts" ??? - A.L.]

I also think it's great that the Gary Windo stuff will see light.
Symbiosis was a great line-up.

All for now.
Feedback welcome and encouraged.


From: Michael Bloom <MHB@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Looking elegant and writing prose
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 16:02:53 EDT

>From: simonetta risaio <simonetta.risaio@infoboard.be>
>Subject: What is Canterbury Music?

>enjoyed to discover - after almost 20 years - that Ivor (Cutler) is Chris's
>father! ;)

He's Frank Zappa's father, from when he played Mister Green Jeans on
the (American) Captain Kangaroo TV show. Or to put it another way,
this is a persistent rumor, but it's completely untrue.

>What do the early Softs have in common with the group of "Seven" ?

Nothing at all, IMHO. I weep when "Seven" comes on. I do like Softs,
and as a recovering Holdsworthaholic I have to like "Bundles".

>Why do some people who write to this digest (I can't remember who)
>include Lindsay Cooper and exclude Fred Frith ? or Keith Tippett ?

Uh, we could adhere to the letter of the law and recall that Cooper
played with National Health, who inherited their Canterbury status
from Hatfield and the North (75% genuine Canterbury content, and
I'd grant Dave Stewart honorary citizenship).

[Why do you consider Phil Miller and Pip Pyle more "genuinely Canterburian" than Dave Stewart ? None of them is from Canterbury !?! - A.L.]

But I think Henry Cow as an entity deserves Canterbury credentials.
This is based on my own working definition of Canterbury as a way of
expressing a certain kind of humor in melodic and rhythmic oddities.
(That's also why I reject Soft Machine Seven: it's not funny enough.)
I find pieces like "Teenbeat" and "Bittern Storm Over Ulm" hilarious,
and while the humor is more the sort of self-referentiality/cultural
critique usually associated with Zappa, I think there's also a
debt to Soft Machine. First of all, if you've heard the Henry Cow
Top Gear tapes, there's a vamp tune that's extremely derivative of
"Esther's Nose Job," the whole 7/8 groove. (Frith attributed it
to former bassist Andy Powell). By the time Cow was recording, the
explicit Soft references were gone, but this stuff leaves its mark.
And I read somewhere (Melody Maker?) that Wyatt's original scheme
for "Rock Bottom" was to record some of the music twice, once with
Hatfield and the North as the backing band and then again with Cow,
and edit the final record with splices between the two. Who better
to judge what's Canterbury? If Wyatt thinks they can play his stuff,
that's good enough for me.

Is Keith Tippett Canterbury? I don't know any connection he has to
rock (or any amplified music) that doesn't go through Robert Fripp--
who, despite that he produced the second Matching Mole, is no more
Canterbury than I am. (Hey, I've jammed with Richard Sinclair! :-)

[By the way, worth pointing out is the fact that Fripp also produced
not only the Centipede album from 1971, but also the Keith & Julie
Tippett album on EG Records, from 1988 or something - A.L.]

>The point I'm really making is that Canterbury is more a 'spirit', a way to
>interpret music and the role of musicians, the inclination to cross musical
>genres without much respect for labels, definitions or traditions.

Certainly that's not the only criterion; there are lots of musicians
who try to do so all the time-- like everyone on Cuneiform Records,
among whom only Hugh Hopper is dyed-in-the-wool Canterbury.

I'm not even sure it's a necessary condition. I feel like, say, Alan
Gowen was not fusing genres, he was playing something that was clearly
jazz in conception, even if it was played on amplified equipment.

Certainly not everyone agrees with me in this matter (or anything else).
There's a new book out, The Rough Guide to Jazz, written in England and
quite Anglocentric (Ian Carr was one of the three principal reviewers),
and there are entries for everyone on the Gilgamesh debut-- except Gowen!
They don't think he's jazz! They cover John Marshall, but not Wyatt; Roy
Babbington, but not Hopper; most of the sidemen in In Cahoots, but not
Phil Miller... it was a real disappointment to me!

>What I would identify as the 'Canterbury sound' does not extend - in my
>opinion - beyond the first 3 Softs lp's, the first 4 Caravan, the first 2
>K.Ayers, Egg, Hatfield, "Rock Bottom", the 1st Gilgamesh and possibly
>National Health.

Too restrictive IMHO. No Gong ? Not even the "Bananamour" record with Ayers
and Wyatt ? How about the various solo albums-- doesn't "Hopper Tunity Box",
with a very interesting cast of characters including Dave Stewart, count ?
Doesn't "Old Rottenhat" make the grade? Matching Mole? How can anyone deny

Gee, if we're gonna be that restrictive, how can we even count Egg and
Gilgamesh, both (as far as I know) based in London? Stewart often denies
that he ever had anything to do with Canterbury. What a silly man he is.

>From: DrOrb@aol.com
>Subject: Thank-you Michael

>Just want to express my appreciation for Michael Bloom's excellent historical
>account of Gong's first foray into the US.

My pleasure. Gotta exercise the old brain cells once in a while.

>I see that Lisa Herman's name popped up... I loved her work with
>Blegvad/Greaves. I know she was in a band called Longhouse; I have the vinyl,
>but was greatly disappointed. Anyone know of anything else she has done or if
>she can be cajoled into doing some more work with "our crowd"?

I don't know of anything else with "our crowd," unless you want to
count the time she and Peter Blegvad played together in the Golden
Palominos. She also did a cameo on one song, "Swelling Valley", on
the one and only Lodge album Smell of a Friend.

>From: "Lisa Shannon" <lisanico@access.digex.net>
>Subject: Thanks Mike

>Tell Michael Bloom thank you!  for his marvelous piece on Zu, which I
>remembered thru a dense fog of time & the psychedelics I'd acquired from
>friends who were stage hands there at Entermedia that nite.  I'd forgotten
>all about that press conference with Daevid Allen standing on his head
>doing bicycles with his legs while Chris Cutler (and John Paige, I think)
>droned on ...

Wow, John Paige! I'd long forgotten his being there. I do remember
Michael Zentner, erstwhile Muffin (who after he left they swore they'd
never get another guitarist), schmoozed his way into Blegvad's band--
at Zu House they played an instrumental version of the tune that was
to become "Crumb de la Crumb". Zentner also made a solo album where he
got people like Daevid Allen, Carla Bley, Percy Jones et al to sit in.
It's better than "The Pillory", but that's all I'll say in its favor.
I suppose it belongs in the discography, but it really was lame.

Oh, I also remember Blegvad announcing that a clever way to create
new song lyrics was to invert the lyrics to an existing song, so that
(his example) "It's like a heat wave" would yield "It's different than
a cold particle!"

As I write, it is June 5. Tomorrow is Richard Sinclair's birthday!


From: cmeloche@julian.uwo.ca (Chris Meloche)
Subject: (WR) Caravan: BBC Sessions listing
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:28:46 -0400 (EDT)

Caravan: BBC Sessions info
(according to "In Session Tonight" by Ken Garner)

B'cast date: Jan. 5/69 (Programme: Top Gear)
Green Bottles for Marjorie / A Place of My Own / Feelin', Reelin'
Squeelin' / Ride
Pye Hastings (g/v), Richard Sinclair(b/v), David Sinclair (kb/v), Richard
Coughlan (d).
Rec'd Dec. 31/68

Feb. 3/69 (Brandon)
A Place of My Own / Ride / Green Bottles for Marjorie
Rec'd Jan 27/69

Sept. 14/69 (Top Gear)
The Clipping of the Eighth / Why /Excerpt from the Daily Routine of
Maurice Haylett
Rec'd Aug. 26/69

Nov. 14/70 (Top Gear)
Golf Girl / For Richard / Hello Hello
Rec'd Nov. 2/70

April 9/71 (Black)
Love to Love You / In the Land of Grey and Pink / Golf Girl / Love Song
Without Flute
Rec'd Mar. 11/71

April 17/71 (Top Gear)
Nine Feet Underground
Rec'd Mar. 29/71

May 2/72 (Peel)
Waterloo Lily / Love in Your Eye / The World Is Yours
Rec'd April 11/72
Steve Miller (kb) r. D. Sinclair

Aug. 30/73 (Peel)
Head Loss / Memory Ian High / L'Auberge du Sanglier/A Hunting We Shall
Add Geoff Richardson (vla), John Perry (b) r. R. Sinclair, David Sinclair
(kb) r. Miller

Oct. 1/73 (Harris)
Be Alright/Chance of a Lifetime / Cthluthlu / The Love in Your Eye
Rec. Sept. 12/73

Feb. 14/74 (Peel)
Love In Your Eye / Virgin on the Ridiculous / Mirror for the Day / For
Rec. Feb. 7/74

July 3/75 (Peel)
The Show of Our Lives / Stuck in a Hole / The Dabsong Conshirtoe
Rec'd June 26/75
Mike Wedgwood (b/v/cga) r. Perry

May 17/76 (Peel)
All the Way / A Very Smelly Grubby Little Oik/Come on Back/Grubby Little
Oik (reprise)
Rec'd May 5/76
Jan Schelhaas (kb) r. D. Sinclair

May 10/77 (Peel)
Behind You / The Last Unicorn / Better By Far / Nightmare
Rec'd May 2/77
Dek Messecar (b) r. Wedgwood, Schelhaas out

Chris Meloche (cmeloche@julian.uwo.ca)

[Thanks Chris - what about Henry Cow, Gong, Gilgamesh, Egg and Nucleus
now ? ... When you have the time !... Eventually, this info will be
included in the CALYX website - A.L.]


From: Grant Penton <penton@odyssee.net>
Subject: subsciption
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:20:58 -0400

Great job you're doing- hope this could be as active as the Fripp
appreciation society!  I've been a fan since the late 70's, and although
I've bought few Canatabury works since early 80's, it's great to see some
of the old names still active- the DS bio was great reading, and the HC
article the best supplement to anything I've found in the recommended
pages.  Hope to to hear from and contribute to you regularly, and keep up
the good work!

Meanwhile, I'll stay at home at listen to Schoenberg in the bath... (QS)

Grant Penton (Montreal)


From: "Julius & Jennifer Saroka" <JandJ_Saro@msn.com>
Subject: Ric Sanders interview
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 96 04:42:38 UT

I'd heard that Percy Jones did gigs with the Softs, nice to have it
But the big question is : does *anyone* have tapes !?!?!?!?!?!


From: bigbang@alpes-net.fr (A. Leroy)
Subject: Michael Giles, Jamie Muir, David Cunnigham
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 96 22:35:20 +0000

I received the new Wayside Music catalog yesterday. Apparently, the
long-promised CD (on Voiceprint) of 1983-recorded material by this
trio with two ex-King Crimson percussionists is now out.
Steve Feigenbaum's description follows : "This was recorded as a film
soundtrack in 1983, and enjoyed an excellent reputation, although it
was unheard except in the film until now. The two percussionists' work
is assisted, twisted and transformed by David Cunningham. The three
musicians improvised and reacted to the film footage, later looping,
sampling, cutting and pasting and crossfading the music".
This definitely sounds interesting, but the question is : IS THIS
LISTENABLE... or just another "legendary archive recording" like
the Daevid Allen Trio tapes from 1963 ?
Any answer, Steve ? (or anyone else who heard this)

(By the way, is this Canterbury-related ? A little. Jamie Muir was in
Sunship, with Alan Gowen, Lyn Dobson and (briefly) Allan Holdsworth
before King Crimson, Giles enjoyed a long collaboration with John G
Perry, and Cunningham has recorded two albums with John Greaves).


Completely unrelated, Bernard Gueffier of Musea wrote to announce
that the re-issue of Canterbury-influenced French band RHESUS 0 will
soon be out on his label (or is, already).



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